Jon
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another podcast with me, Jon Kent, the founder of in the office and our chief storyteller, Adam Scorey. Today, we're going to talk about culture and whether it's a place or a mindset.

This has come about because of the way that companies are now talking about trying to get people back into the office and using the excuse, some might say, of we need to build a strong culture with our company. So, we need people back and to be co-located for that. So I guess I'll ask you, Adam, is culture a place or a mindset?

Adam
I think it's actually a bit of both for me. It starts, I think, as a mindset, but it lives in a place too. But I don't think you need to have a place to have a culture.

So, I disagree wholeheartedly with what CEOs are doing. And if they are trying to lever culture as the reason for coming back to the office, I really disagree with that and think we've got it all wrong if that's the case, because for me, a business isn't its chairs, its desks, its Apple laptops, it's its people. And I think that's where the culture lives, inside the people.

I guess it's not akin, it's akin to faith. You don't have to have a church to have faith. And that for me, it feels like the same kind of thing.

I grew up with a father. He's a minister. I'm not a person of faith.

But for him, he came round to, actually, you know what? You don't need to pray in a church. You can pray anywhere.

You can go out and stand in a field. So for me, I truly believe it's a mindset and its place changes depending on where you are. You carry that culture with you.

Yeah, I strongly believe that.

 Jon
So, culture is this sort of intangible thing that just affects the way that people behave, I guess is a sort of way that you could say it. So if that's the case, is there a problem? This is probably going to be a horrible question now.

Is there a problem with trying to bring people back to a single location that the company can control in order to try to create that faith, that culture?

Adam
I don't think so, no. It depends on the data that they're using or what reason they're actually using to bring people back in. If that's the sole reason that they think their culture is going to fall apart because there's no one in the office, then how do businesses that have only remote workers manage to generate a culture of productivity and solve problems, which is what businesses are for in the end, ultimately, how do they do that?

We're not claiming that all these remote only businesses are failing. In fact, they're thriving. So yes, I think there are elements to a culture that need a place to be, but whether that's Costa or Nero, a pub, a Go Ape.

One of my teammates, we went to Go Ape together. That's a place that the culture is expanded and grown and thrived and built and fed. So I disagree if they're only using that data to say, right, the culture is in the office, there is no cultures in the office.

Personally, I think that's an element of trust that's lacking or an old-fashioned paradigm, the 500-year-old paradigm about what an office actually is now, or was successfully during the pandemic and slightly after, and then the fear has kicked back in and it's, no, okay, we know people think that culture is important. It's a strong emotional pull into a business and leaders have spoken a huge amount about culture through the pandemic. Now there feels to me like they're leveraging that word to achieve something that they through fear want to have happen.

Jon
I think that's really interesting actually, because the culture of fear and it's quite well documented how some people really thrive in that scenario. So I guess it depends on each individual company really, doesn't it? But some companies will have a leader or the managers who, or even a team where the culture within that team is sometimes of fear or of thriving from negativity or trying to prove that you're better.

There's also the flip side where it's actually some people, if you induce fear in them, they're going to fall apart. So I guess it's how do you find the right culture for the right company? But then also it's not just about company, is it?

It's about the company culture. So the higher level culture, but then the micro cultures of each team or each sub team or each portion of that team. So how do you work out what the right culture is for each one?

How would you do that?

 Adam
Well, I think there's different elements to a culture. In a small business like ours, when you start up, the culture will come from you as the founder, and you express what the aims and objectives of the business. And I think that's where some of the culture emanates from.

And I think that's the right thing. The culture should be in place, the framework of that culture to achieve the aims and goals and the vision, mission values of the company. As the company gets larger, it's obviously much harder for an individual to maintain, not so much a whole, because I don't think you should necessarily control it.

I think it should be organic, the culture, but it then becomes a very different beast when you've got lots of people feeding in. I mean, you can go into recruitment of the right people for the right culture. But I think the culture needs to be really tied in quite well with the overall objectives and the ambitions.

And it needs to be fed almost on a daily basis, this culture about why we're here, what are we trying to do? Which I think then once people can have a platform from which to understand the culture, which comes from actually the culture set up to help produce or solve the challenges within the business. The bit that I really, that frustrates me is that there is only one thing, culture is a thing and everybody wants to have the same culture.

And we've heard, you know, Stephen Bartlett famously, goodness only knows what the culture was like in his business. I think that's amazing because it thrived, you know, the blue slide and the stuff like that. I mean, you, I remember talking about this with you just the other day and you were talking about Pixar.

Just tell us a little bit about that because that for me was like, well, that to me sums up what I've just kind of not particularly well, not eloquently described. But tell us about that because that for me really sums this up as Pixar, the way that they create a culture. Well, yeah.

Jon
So, I mean, it's not to go straight into that, but to talk a bit about what you just said though, the culture needs to work for those people and there isn't a single culture. And there does seem to be that sort of striving for everyone should have the same culture. And with Pixar, obviously, you know, it's one of the most creative companies in the world.

And the culture was famously sort of architected by Steve Jobs and the way that he built the offices of Pixar to try to encourage these sort of accidental encounters and encourage people to just be able to sit and do work and actually also to stay there and not leave the office till the work's done, which now, you know, might actually may or may not be the right way to go about it. But the other core things that they were trying to implement was huge high levels of psychological safety and making sure that, I think it was, you know, whatever happens, the manager or the leader of a project, they can ask for help from other people. They're welcoming feedback but ultimately, they remain in control of that project.

So they are the ultimate decision maker, but they're welcoming feedback because of the level of psychological safety, the feedback that isn't taken personally, it's about the work. So if you're, I remember there was a story, I think it's in the, I can't remember the name of the book now, but the Pixar book, we can probably put notes in the, put it in the notes. But yeah, when they were doing Filming Brave and there was a scene where the wooden door was meant to be propped open by a stick and they, every week they have a, basically a show and tell where they show the, what they've done recently.

And someone said, do we really think that stick would hold the door open? That looks wrong to me. It just, it's too small.

It looks like it would snap. So rather than going, but I, you know, I've spent hours designing this, probably not hours because it's all done with technology. But rather than going, oh, but that's, you know, I feel like you're insulting my work and you're not appreciating what I've put into it.

It was a, yes, we're, you know, we're trying to make something great. So the focus is on the work, all the feedback can come in, but it's not personal because I'm not saying, giving you feedback and saying that's not quite up to standard. So therefore, I'm saying you're rubbish.

I'm saying this work, we were trying to together to make this the best. So therefore, let's do it. And if you disagree, argue back, absolutely fine.

Then the leader, the project leader will make the ultimate decision and then we move on.

Adam
So I describe it quite, it's probably not the most eloquent thing, but I, the snake needs to have a head, but the rest of the body is made up of all these moving parts, you know? So I totally agree with that. And I think that's a wonderful piece, but the crucial bit there is that, as you mentioned, that psychological safety to be able to go, I'm not in fear of putting my hand up and going, I think that's, I don't know if that's very good.

That's a huge, that, that points to me towards like the culture has been designed, really carefully designed to achieve one thing. It's not constrained. Although there are constraints, I suppose as such, but it's not constrained, and it's designed for everybody to bring their best self every single day.

Yeah. And that's what a powerful environment. And I can only imagine, okay, not every industry is a creative industry, how this would work for accountants or lawyers where they're in a very strictly guarded or a government department.

I mean, that must be really tough to, you know, because I don't know, I've not worked for a government department. Is there a culture dictated to by whoever's in power at the time? Yeah.

Yes. See what I mean? So, but I think that that purposefulness of culture is what generates that impetus, that power, that kind of nuclear engine inside.

And something we've spoken about before was it, it's that combination of, I think the phrase you used was actions over intentions or actions and intentions, but it's, it's the design, you know, that's there's parenthesis around that, but it's designed at the top for that purpose. And that's super powerful and inspiring too.

Jon
Well, yeah. And actually, with the sort of actions and intentions, it's the, what someone intends, what a leader intends to be a culture and how they sort of tell the company, this is the way we're going to act. You know, I think a really brilliant one is the right.

We don't want people working at weekends as a CEO going, well, we've heard about the four-day working week and all of these people are really productive. So no one's working at weekends or no one, you know, meeting three Fridays. And then the first week the CEO goes, oh, I'm actually sending emails on Saturday and Sunday.

Don't, don't respond because you shouldn't work the weekend, but I'm working at the weekend. So it's, you know, the intention is to go in one way, but actually their actions are completely dictating the other, the other thing. Don't do what I do, do what I say.

It's like. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's a really, that's a really hard thing for leaders to get right because there is, especially at the moment, there is this, you know, culture of countrywide or global culture or trying to show that you work all hours of the day and, you know, God forbid you get some sleep, you know, no one should be sleeping.

You should always be working. Otherwise, how are you going to be successful? You know, the, the, I speak to a lot of people who are starting businesses where they're all sort of quoting things that other entrepreneurs have said in the past, you know, some of the big entrepreneurs, whether it's talking about how much work you have to put into it.

And they're all spouting the same stuff that that was said there. And you're going, well, actually you're setting up the culture, even though it's just you as a one person, you're setting up a culture that is, you have to work all time, which means that you don't get the chance to step away and have a break and think about being creative or innovative. As we know from studies that, you know, if you have a break, you'll come back and you'll be revitalised and you'll, you'll be more productive.

 So it's, yeah, it's interesting.

Adam
Lots of little things make up the ingredients. I mean, it's the ingredients of the cake scenario, I guess. I mean, the eggs, the flour, the butter, the sugar and the chocolate and the fruit, whatever it is.

But you can't have one without the other because without those ingredients, it's, but it needs that design that I think that recipe to continue the poor analogy is really, really important around focusing on the outcome. But also, I think from a leader's perspective, and I've probably been guilty of this a little bit myself when I've led teams is not necessarily allowing that culture to expand and grow organically. Not to say through fear, but just purely through practical reasons about, well, how far do you let this go?

How much authority do I truly have as a, as a head of, you know, and then that's the culture of the person who is leading me. I, you know, do I feel trusted? Do I feel psychologically safe?

So, you know, all of these elements kind of ring in true for me, but, you know, was my office, did I, did I listen to all these opinions? And we talk about multiculturalism in businesses. Now, not every business will have multi, multicultural elements to it.

But even within cultures, there are, you mentioned it, micro-cultures and everybody's mindsets so different. So how they bring, regardless of what the colour of their skin is or where they, their kind of background is from, they each bring something unique and special. If you allow them to have that psychological safety to be able to go, Oh, actually, I'm not sure that that's, you know, the stick.

What a, what a great example of, I'm not sure that that would work, you know, how many businesses would allow that? How many cultures would allow that? And the fear for me is this kind of rigid mindset around a culture being just one thing.

And then what we're seeing is potentially a cycle again, starting of presentism over productivity or, or purposefulness. And we're going to fall back into the pre-pandemic trap of being in the office is the only way to judge the culture and everything then is focused. The ingredients of the cake are focused on keeping people in the office rather than actually the outcomes, the challenges that we truly want to solve in the face of the fact that people have changed after the pandemic, the world of work has changed.

The balance has changed and people are, the biggest question I think people are asking is why am I doing this? So that's why the culture I think needs to be so tightly, not controlled, but so tightly maintained and enabled to grow so that it can be fed.

Jon
Yeah. I mean, I think one of the, one of the things you mentioned there was the multiple, you know, obviously microcultures within teams. And I mean, we, we talk a lot about psychological safety and I think one of the things that people mistake that for is, you know, everyone gets in a, in a trust circle and have a hug at the end of the day.

And actually it's, it's not necessarily that it's, you know, a small team might have a culture where they do, possibly bordering on being rude to each other, you know, provide feedback. But as long as the psychological safety there is that actually this is, as I said, you know, it's feedback on the work. It's not a personal thing.

Or even if, I mean, you know, we don't want to go back to sort of macho cultures where it's, you know, you can basically be incredibly offensive and just call it banter and apparently get away with it. Although, you know, that's not happening anymore.

Adam
Yeah, exactly.

 Jon
I mean, actually a really funny story about that. I, I went on a cadet tour when I was 18 to Canada and on the bus going into the army barracks, the master in charge of the barracks said, you know, we don't like insults around here because an insult is like throwing a stone into a pond. You can't, you know, if you say an insult, you can't then go, just kidding, because once you've thrown the stone, it's in the pond.

And then you've got the effect of the ripples that happen afterwards. Which I, for some reason that's stuck in my head. But, but then I think there's also going back to what one of the things you said, you know, the micro cultures, do you think there's a way that you can have a culture, an overall culture of psychological safety, and then you can have one team where they are a bit more ‘huggy’ and, and, you know, let's be, let's all be friends against the culture where another micro-culture with a team that they work with, where it's slightly more, I want to say more sort of European, where they say, you know, more Dutch and less English, I guess, you know, rather than apologising for being alive, you're, this is, this is the fact, and we're just going to say it. Can those two cultures actually work together?

 Adam
I think they can. I think it really depends on the purpose of what you're trying to do as a team. Yes, I mean, I've, one of my most favourite times of working, I worked for a company called Archant.

And I was the green brand editor of three magazines, I used to sort of edit and run them and manage the team of small people. And I remember once the head of HR, who was ex-Navy, actually, she came up to me and said, Adam, you've got the best team, how do you do it? Which, you know, you know, I kind of thought initially, you think there's a bit of smoke blowing up your bum, but in reality, it wasn't me that made the culture, I allowed the culture in that small team to become what it was.

 So, I enabled everybody, I guess I created, I suppose, inadvertently, a culture of psychological safety, I let people have strong discussions around things that were important to them. There were one, there were two people on the team, particularly, they're both designers, actually. And they used to argue vehemently over little things, like, oh, you're not using a baseline grid or, and it was sometimes quite technical design terms, and it would get quite heated, it was like brother and sister arguing.

But even with all that, the reason I allowed that to happen within reason was I felt they cared. They cared enough to argue about something as trivial to most people as a baseline grid, you're not using it, you should use it. And it was just two different styles of, one was a very good designer, and she was solid, and she was so capable and, and creative within her framework, whereas the other, the other guy was, he was kind of all over the show.

But he still created, they both came up with, with the right design. And they were on the right, they had the right purpose or the right mindset for the purpose. So, I absolutely believe that, I think it comes down to, I guess, the right people, understanding the reasons why that it's okay to have those discussions.

And, and, you know, I've worked my last role, I was working with people from all over the world, but particularly German team. And it was quite difficult to understand the cultural differences between the very direct approach that the German team would have in conversations, or why you didn't, I don't understand that doesn't make any sense to me. But because it was a place of safety, it was okay, well, let's just talk about that.

What do you mean? What is it? Let me help you understand.

So, it wasn't there wasn't fear, there wasn't ego, or not much enabled you to kind of allow that. Because what I valued was the questioning because they cared. But also the fact that they are seeing it through a different lens than me.

You know, it's a bit like all being in a football match. I'm sitting in a seat thinking I've got the best seat in the house. I can see really close, and I've got a great back seat. I can see the players really close. And yet the person who's sitting up in the boondocks with a pair of binoculars, I can see everything. This is the best seat in the house because, you know, I've not got this or that and the ball's not going to hit me or whatever the case may be.

So, I think it very much depends on the lens of which you look through it. And then the parameters of why am I here? What am I supposed to be doing?

And does that aid and empower that I suppose? Sorry, very long and rambling answer there.

Jon
That's actually you touched on something which I was thinking about earlier as well, which is, you know, you want to have that diverse experience, so people are coming at it from different, seeing it through the problem through different lenses. And one of the things that I was chatting to a friend about it saying, you know, if you're hiring someone who has only ever worked in one place, for me, that's a slight worry. If they're very senior, obviously if they're junior, you can't have a go.

But if they're very senior and they've only ever worked in one place, for me, that's a worry because I know that they're probably going to have very fixed ideas. They've only experienced probably one core culture. However, that's changed over the years, but one core culture and one particular way of doing it, especially with coding, you know, everyone talks about best practices, but the best practice tends to be for that company because every project is different.

And there were a couple of worries there of how you are then going to bring someone who has that, especially if they are more matter of fact and are very passionate about the way that they've been taught to do it because they've then in the other company brought new people in and taught them their culture and their way of doing it. How do you then make sure that they get embedded within your culture and your way of doing it if they're very strict on the way that they think things should be done?

Adam
I think this is how that happens would depend on the size of the company, I think. If it's a small company, I'd imagine that the culture would be quite raw and open. With a large company, the culture is, because you can't see everybody all the time, probably you see it in pockets.

And I would, with a smaller company, yes, they can probably more directly influence the culture of the business because they do see everybody over the time. And if they're senior, particularly, and I find this more with people who are, they can be senior and not affect the culture. But if you're senior and have got hiring and firing capabilities, that's when the power, the relationship changes.

Because if you can fire somebody, that's the ultimate power in a business. You can give them a telling off, you can change this and change that. But ultimately, if you can say, right, you're out, I think that changes the fear quotient of a relationship with somebody.

So, in a larger company, I think probably the culture will end up like anything, it'll be water onto rocks. And this individual, unless they're an enormous personality, somebody like Musk or Gates or Richard Branson, as I understand anyway, is that yes, they probably can pull the culture. But I think the culture will probably seep into them more if it's strong enough.

If it's a weak culture, then I think a strong personality, or somebody just very senior because they've got a badge or a title, probably could kind of infect that culture, if you like, for want of a better phrase. So, I think it rather depends. But I guess it comes back to the strength of the culture, even an incredibly strong personality, probably would end up grinding against those edges, probably a lot.

And if they're in a senior position, you'd expect them to be quite smart, have high EI, and they'd probably understand that actually, my approach is not going to work and very quickly go, I need to adapt to this. And if I want to change it, then I'm going to have to change either my strategy around it, or I'm going to have to absorb some of the culture and let it change me. So, it really depends on the mindset of I think that that leader to as to what changes the most, you would hope that both do, because that's the point, you pour rather than a cup that's full, I think a culture is a cup that never ends.

And you can just keep it's never full. So, you can just keep putting more and more and more a bit like love, you know, it just expands and grows. So, I think culture should be the same sort of principle in that it's you just pour more in and it's more value and it's better and it's richer and it becomes more powerful and more purposeful, but it doesn't need that direction.

Jon
That's really, I love the way you go back to love, you know, we can talk about the English and the Dutch, very English. But yeah, we'll cut that bit out.

 Adam
Yeah, that's a terrible Dutch accent.

Jon
But I think there's, so I've been in loads of teams, both in sporting world and business. And I've seen one of my the most successful teams I was on was an under 25 team for the World Championships. And our captain very, on our first training weekend said, I'm not going to put up with brilliant assholes.

You can be the absolute best and, you know, just, you know, individually so great, but you don't want that toxic person in the team. And I mean, it's interesting because there you're talking about the, you know, if you're senior enough, then you should be able to take a step back, get over your ego and go, right, so I've just got to merge with this. But I've also been in lots of situations where there has been someone who is just toxic, who is the, you know, has the leader badge and keeps throwing it in your face.

And it always makes me think of the, you know, if you have to say I'm the leader, you're not. But do you think there's a, do you think there is a time where, or is it a training thing? Is it a recruitment thing?

How do you make sure that you don't end up with those people? Or is there a way that you can train those people and try to bring them along on the journey with you?

 Adam
Well, I think it's very much down to the individual. I mean, I've been in businesses where you do the, you know, the rotten apple in the barrel, maybe excellent at sales or marketing or design or something. And yet they are so egotistical about it or hard or, I think ultimately the culture has to win, the team has to win rather than the individual.

And it's just a tough decision that has to be made. I think you need to enable that person to change. I think good, strong leadership of that person to help them understand what the culture of the business is.

And leadership is not just a person, it is everybody pulling together because you always, always must give people the opportunity to change. So, so important. That should be part of the culture.

But it will get to the point if that person's unprepared to change through their own fear, through their lack of that psychological safety, or maybe sometimes it's just pure blind arrogance. They just, people are so different. So ultimately, I think you have to make a tough decision and go, yes, maybe I'm going to lose a bit of income.

Maybe we're not going to get those things done on time. But for me, I look at that and go, what's the opportunity I could be creating? Business abhors a vacuum, same as nature.

And it won't be very long before somebody who fits into that culture, understands the mission more, understands that you work together, will fill that space and create something even better still. Because ultimately, I think we're, you know, businesses are foolishly on this drive to be exponentially profitable and growth exponentially. It's an impossibility.

It's a crazy way to exist. So, I'm doing enough. I'm turning over enough, you know, solving the right problems.

For me, the problems come, you solve the problem, money becomes the outcome or the activity that generates the outcomes. I think those things are outcomes of the activity. So yeah, I think ultimately it comes down to really strong leadership, really try hard to get that person to understand the challenges that they're creating.

And if then they decide, because everything's a choice, if they decide, no, that's not for me, the culture's not for me, the team's not for me, you just got to go, well, I'm sorry, this isn't working. You've got to go.

Jon
Sounds, yeah, sounds, dare I say the F word, but fair. I think just one more sort of quick thing, just to bring it back to what we do, obviously, which is, you know, kind of good working. How do you think, what are the main challenges you think about creating a good culture or managing or that is feeding into a good culture?

What are the main challenges with that, with the new world of sort of hybrid working?

Adam
Well, for me, it's a common understanding that productivity isn't located in one place for one, you know, in terms of hybrid working, you can be creative and productive and effective and feel like you're contributing to the business, sat in a car on the side of a motorway, because you're making telephone calls or you've had, you sit and have a coffee and you're writing up some notes or you go for a walk. You spoke earlier about, you know, going for a walk and just spending your time doing some thinking.

How is that not productive? It's valuing every element of the cycle of being productive, being part of a team and moving something forward, fixing a challenge. So, I think that's one element of it.

That psychological safety piece and labelling people and saying, look, I know I'm the boss, I will make the decision, but I'll do it in conjunction with you. People have got to feel like things aren't done to them, they're done with them. That, I think, imbues a huge amount of psychological safety to enable people to go, I have a voice, I'm important here and I value, I'm being valued.

So therefore, I start to feel, actually, I do have a voice here and it might only start small, it might be a little mouse voice, but if you take the time to listen, you know, things like having regular one-to-ones with your team to kind of coach them through those challenges and giving them the confidence to say, I really value your opinion and celebrating that too, having regular occasions where you celebrate as a team.

I think the loss is more than the wins in actual fact, because I think you learn more from the losses. So this becomes part of the recipes, the ingredients of a culture. Where I do struggle a little bit is kind of this Gen Z, this fear of Gen Z, seeing culture as a myopic view of a laptop and a beach, or I can just sit and create TikToks and I don't need anybody else.

It's very individualistic and I can, you know, I'm the culture, the business is, that's me, I'm the culture and it's this kind of little sphere of, I mean, yes, some people have done it, but people are perhaps Gen Z more than anybody because they're so put off by what they're seeing going on in cultures, their parents, what happened to them, you know, kind of, and uncles and aunts and when they're going into the world of work, it's like, my goodness, this is horrible.

You know, it's the cultures are terrible. It's just, you know, feast off famine or no one's really trust anybody. There’re no discussions, it's not creative, blah, blah, blah.

So, I don't know if that hits the point, but I think that there's some, just some simple things there about trusting people, not blind trust, but extending trust to let people do their jobs, employ smart people, employ people for the culture, be really honest and transparent with people, accept feedback for what it is from the right people. Again, that comes, you know, with a trust relationship and only do jobs that you really love as a leader, as an individual, because if you put yourself at odds with everything within the business straight away by joining a company that's, it doesn't have the same values as you as a person or wants the same objectives of you, you shouldn't be there. Just stop, you know, because when you go home at night, you want to actually, you know, you already mentioned about people saying don't work at weekends.

You want to stop, you know, this whole nine to five culture thing. I used to criticise that. People, why aren't people passionate?

They go home and they're, you know, dreaming up new ways to do things. Some people just don't like that. That's okay.

Accepting people for who they are.

Jon
Yeah, no, I think that's really, I mean, that's the core thing, isn't it? It's everyone's different, accept them for who they are and, yeah, treat them with respect and make sure that you're not doing things to them, you're working with them. It's a very interesting point you said about the Gen Z and, you know, working and it's very insular, their culture is within them because they're doing things by themselves and going off and it's, I think it'll be interesting to see what happens when, you know, I don't want to be dismissive of it because some of them are incredibly successful, but are some of the stuff they're doing more of a fad which might stop in the near future, you know, in 10 years’ time, are they still going to be doing it? And at which point are they then going to try to join a company because they need money?

And as I said, I'll be looking at them, but you've only had one job and you've got your way of doing it, you have no experience of a wider culture and of that give and take because however successful you are, you've got your fixed way of doing it.

Adam
But I think this comes down to a really important point you've made there, I think you can go into a culture that may be at odds with what you've experienced but might be so much better because it's designed, because you lead with what you're trying to achieve and the culture that surrounds that and that connective tissue, you make part of the hiring process and say, right, this is really important, your CV has got you through the door, that tells me something, but what I really care about is why you're here, why us, this is what we're doing, will you fit, will you turn up the dials to 11, not all the time, but is this going to, I used to say this to my team, there's a nuclear furnace inside people, that needs to be fed, if it goes cold, they're going to move on, it's just not right and I think certainly that's something to learn from Gen Z, they're very prepared to go, I'm alright, I will try something else, this isn't working, so and I think that I'm very excited to see what Gen Z are going to bring into cultures in the future because of their mindset around, I'm not prepared to accept there's only one way to do this and that for me is like, wow, that's fuel on the fire of strong culture.

 Jon
Yeah, actually yeah, that's well, that's the ambition that you're talking about, the not doing nine-to-five, it's pushing a lot more. Yeah, that's been a really great conversation, it seems we're almost out of time, so thanks very much, yeah and yeah, we'll speak again soon, thanks very much, look forward to the next one, cheers Jon.