Hi everyone, it's Jon Kent here, founder of intheOffice. I'm joined by Adam Scorey, our Chief Storyteller. Today, I thought it'd be good to actually talk a bit about us and how we sort of met and get to know us a bit better.

So, I mean, Adam, we met in January, I think it was last year, January or February, at the Flexpo conference. It was Flexpo, yeah. Yeah, it's a long time ago.

I know we very, very briefly met there. And then months later, I saw you had a post on LinkedIn saying you were looking for work and looking for a new challenge and something different. So that's pretty much how I just sent you a message and said, yeah, so I've got a new app that I'm selling and could do with someone with your skills.

And it's a new area and can't afford to pay you, but would you be interested? And we had a couple of chats, and it was great because you seemed to react really, really well to that. And I was wondering what sort of made you so excited about the offer and then agreed to come and help out?

I think I've worked for the people for a long time, and I felt like I needed a change. I work in big corporate, work for little companies. My role had changed hugely from what I set out to do.

I started out as a journalist and then I went into editing and then senior management and editing and then went into marketing from there. And it just grew sort of 15 years ago from a chance conversation with somebody else doing marketing already in the editorial worlds, but not with the intensity that I did it now. So after all of that, I just came to the conclusion that it'd be really nice to have my own business, to do something that I owned and that that would change the game because I was at the foundational part of the story of the business and would own that and be really influential in its makeup and history and how the business proceeded.

And it's kind of like the ultimate test of, can you make it? Can you make this work? How do you get this to go?

And that whole trial and error and the startup phase is the energy in it and all this kind of stuff. So it was a real combination of emotions and practical things. And I think you and I as well, we hit it off very quickly.

I think we're so different, but so alike in many ways. And I've always wanted to only work with people who I feel like I've aligned with in more than just, or we want the same thing. I think intellectually and what we want out of the business too.

So many things aligned. I also just did the usual thing, Gabby, what do you think? My partner Gabby, I just said to her, what do you think?

And she said, go for it. No regrets. So a lot of thought went into it, but I loved what software is a SAS model.

It kind of fit with my skill set. It would develop that skill set and challenge me. I knew it was going to be hard work.

So the combination of those things for me, it just felt the right thing to do. So two feet, jumped it, said yeah. It's good.

I think it's really, I'm quite a big fan of trying new things and new challenges. So really it was great that you're willing to and wanting to do that. I think there's nothing worse than going, oh, I feel like I've achieved everything I want.

So I'm just going to sit back and let that carry on. So that was really good to hear. Learning new things for me is super, super important.

You know how much I read or listen to audiobooks in a kind of attempt to expand my mind. Having two recent books, Atomic Habits and The Dire of a CEO, one thing is really, really abundantly clear is people who stop learning, you become old, not in the literal sense, but in the metaphorical sense. Sometimes in the literal sense as well.

If you're not challenging yourself, then for me, it feels like you're just sort of, you are, you're sat still and then just watching the world go by, which is a bit of a shame in my opinion. See, learning's fun. And that's the bit, but it's applying the knowledge as well.

That's the fun bit too. Marketing can be very creative. A lot of businesses calling the colouring in department, which is anybody who's in marketing know that that's the furthest thing from the truth these days, particularly if you're a digital marketeer, there's lots of analysis and maths and strategic planning and all sorts of things.

But testing myself was a big part of that and being able to make a difference in a way that I was on the ground floor at, that was probably the two biggest things. And not with, because I think it's a bit of a fallacy that all startups succeed and all startups make their founders and the early adopters of those startups, the people who work there like I am with you, make you wealthy very quickly because it's just not true. If only it was true.

So Jon, you've had a really, you've had a pretty varied career as well. I believe you started out, you went to university and you studied law. Yes.

Yeah. And then somehow you make the pivot into becoming a software developer and programmer. And then more importantly, you've become a CEO and a founder and an owner of a business.

But on that journey, what for you has been the toughest decision that you've had to make? Well, that's, there are quite a few different tough decisions. I think the first big one was, so as you said, I read law at uni.

I went on to do the legal practice course, which you have to do before you become a trainee. And that's where I met Emily, my wife. And she's very different to me.

I'm very much a more of a risk taker. She's very much a down the line, hate risk, incredibly clever and is very good for legal work. And I think part of the problem is that legal work is generally about advising around the different shades of grey.

I'm very much, I want it to work or not work. And I, yeah, I worked in as a paralegal for about four, four and a half years and kept sort of thinking, well, at some point, you know, I'm surrounded by people who love their jobs. Even Emily loved her job.

And we, I remember we sat down and she was telling me about a case she was working on at the time she was doing litigation and she was working on a case and talking about how she might have to do some work at the weekend. And I just remember listening to the tone in her voice and going, you really love this. And I said that to her and she was like, well, yeah, don't you like what you're doing?

I was like, no, I, every day I wake up and I'm like, when's it, when's it going to get better? I was almost expecting it to happen to me. So I think the, the toughest choice for me was really if I'm not doing law, what am I going to do?

And the part that I, what I did was in law was working with, um, I was in the department that worked with new software companies typically that were coming over from Silicon Valley and setting up in the UK. And I remember being in these meetings and always thinking, God, I wish I was on the other side of the table. I wish it was me that was instructing a law firm.

And that sort of in a roundabout way was how I then got into software development. You know, a couple of full starts of thinking I could learn it over the weekend and then realizing actually it's a bit more complicated than, than I thought. Um, but it was, yeah, the, the decision to actually go, no, I really, I do need to leave law.

Um, well, that was a really hard one, but, um, and I left to, to set up my first business, uh, an agency, which never really took off. It's, um, bungled along for, for quite a long time. Um, but that was, that was probably the biggest, the biggest change and biggest unknown.

Wow. Well, it's really quite a pivot, isn't it? To go from law to coding.

Yeah. I mean, it was, it's the thing that I absolutely love about it is you can write code and then when you, when you actually, you know, you refresh the page or you, you press run or whatever it is, whatever coding you're doing, it either works or it doesn't work. And if it works, that's also not necessarily, you know, you know, that it's, it's done.

Um, and you could potentially release that, but then you also go over it and refactor it to make it better so that the next time, you know, you're going to change it. You don't go, oh, where was, you know, if you have 12 pages of code and actually you could write that in one paragraph, then, you know, let's, let's get it down to that one paragraph. Um, but it's, it just made sense to me.

It was, it was really obvious. And, and I love the way that it ties into, because obviously I moved into development and then, um, into product management where you're taking a step back from that and actually understanding what the core problem is that you're trying to solve and then how you build something to solve that. Um, and that's the, I love the way that that's all intertwines and, you know, you can solve someone's problem, but if it's not in a clear way, the user experience isn't good, then people won't use it either.

So there are so many different things in there. Um, and it's probably it, well, I imagine it's the same with the marketing side as well, where people from the outside would look at it and go, well, it's easy. You know, marketing is just, you put some adverts up, you know, you write copy, um, depending on what you're selling, you either make it corny or serious.

Um, and it's from the outside, it seems like it's quite an easy thing, but I know people think that with product management and, um, with loads of the other jobs and job roles that we talk about, but you know, it's, there's so much nuance and what makes a good product manager is very different to what makes an amazing product manager. Yeah. And the nuance is just exactly it, you know, depending on what the business is, um, will really depend on what marketing skills you bring to bear.

It's not, you know, you don't just do one thing. Marketing isn't just a thing. It's made up.

And this is why I love it so much because it's, it's, you're like a creative analyst. You'd be creative, but you need to do it with purpose and you want to see the results of that. So you need to be commercially minded too.

So creatively purposeful and commercially minded, because ultimately, it's, um, it's about creating results and your actions need to do that. But like with you, I can start with a blank sheet of paper or a blank Canva or, or whatever, and, and start from nothing. It all starts up here from, you know, and you bring the years of history that experience that you've got, and then you create something.

And for me coding, I don't code I've done, you know, kind of Googled something and checked out to add a little something in here or something in there to make something work. But, but for me, it's the same principle where you start with nothing, you type some ones and zeros in and then out of it comes an app, you know, it's like, well, that's simple, right? Yeah.

No, that's actually, that's exactly how it works. And you must use AI all the time. You don't actually work, you know, when I, when I messaged you, it's like, Oh, right.

And I've just turned co-pilot away a minute. What makes you think that, that I actually exist? I'm just an AI.

Well, that AI paid for lunch yesterday, so. Well, yeah, you're very welcome. But I think that's, but that, I mean, one of the things that actually attracted me to you when I saw that you're open for work was in your post, you said you're open for something different.

And I know for me, at the beginning of the pandemic, I was looking for new roles. And for me, it was, I like a challenge of something different. I love to learn something else.

But like, were you, were you slightly nervous? Because I know with Franklin Covey, you were doing more consultancy stuff and potentially, and correct me if I'm wrong, but not so much the sort of the SaaS marketing and sales and that sort of stuff. Was that, was that easy to make the shift?

Were you nervous about it? Was it just a, yeah. Well, prior to Franklin Covey, I'd worked for two SaaS businesses and relatively young startup-y kind of modes.

One very startup-y is only sort of a few months old. So I'd had a lot of experience with those and really loved the frisson, the energy, the kind of roll your sleeves up and muck in and do 27 things because you have to, to start with, you don't come with a pre-formatted ops division, marketing, sales and client services. It just doesn't happen that way.

My work with FranklinCovey, yeah, they were a professional services firm, but moving into SaaS, you know, very, very smart company, great culture, easy people to work for. So, so no, I think the combination of the skills from SaaS and then the learning from leadership, because it was a leadership development company primarily really, and training and things, but so no, I wasn't really nervous. I think I've always suffered a little bit with imposter syndrome around every single role that I've done.

You know that self-doubt that creeps in, in the hope that it makes you better, but you know, it's maybe it's ego too, but there's an element of, well, this is really going to test my mettle. I wonder if I'm as good as I think I am. You know, I was on the senior leadership at the last company.

It was very responsible. They're very smart people I was working with, Beth and Jim and Paul Coates and Phiroze and Curtis, Stephen, and you had to work at a certain level. So, you know, and it was tough sometimes.

So yeah, that imposter syndrome, you know, kind of is always sitting on my shoulder a little bit at times, but once you get into something, you know, you get your dirt under the fingernails, things change. So I'm not so much nervous. I don't really get nervous any way with most things apart from when I'm at the top of a ski slope.

But other than that, I was really looking forward to the challenge, the learning, working with somebody new, doing something different and almost starting with that fresh sheet of paper again and going, yeah, it's, it's my opportunity. And it's that kind of realisation. I still have these moments.

I had one yesterday going, actually, I can do that because it's mine in the sense that it's my responsibility to do that. And I take that very, very seriously. So why didn't I do that?

I should have just done it. So, you know, you have these little kind of strange moments at times, but. Yeah, it's one of the best things.

Do we have fun? I think we do because it's not fun. Haha.

We have a laugh and a joke when we get together, whether that's in London at our Opus offices or yesterday we had a meeting in the beautiful Beaconsfield in a pub there. Where you can't find a parking spot. Yeah, the hardest place to park in the UK, I think.

And then obviously we had our Christmas do when we went and drove the Formula One cars, which was huge fun. So it's not, it's not like we have peals of laughter and, you know, our job is, you know, we're not clowns, but I, my fun comes from the work that I do and seeing the results of that, you know, watching the work I'm doing with the SEO on the website and then seeing us rank a little bit higher. That's fun to me.

Yeah. Weirdly, I am a bit of a nerd. That's fine.

But yeah, it's fun. I know exactly what you mean. The, the fun, the fun stuff for me is when I've built something.

And firstly, it's, I was chatting to, to another developer yesterday and he was having a trouble with a bug that he was, he was trying to decode, sorry, debug. And he was like, I spent two hours on it. And I was like, yeah, but that time where you press run and everything goes green or the page loads properly and you're like, yes, that's amazing.

You know, and you have to celebrate those little fun moments. But then ultimately if someone's saying I've used what you've built and it's actually helped me through, those are the moments where, you know, you used to talk about imposter syndrome and yeah, my imposter syndrome is just always in sat next to me in my office. And it's only those few moments where, yeah, exactly. They're just, they're there. But yeah, it's those moments where you go, yes, it's actually, yeah, that's, that's why, that's why you do it. That's why you really get up, I guess.

Yeah. I send you screen grabs at quarter to one in the morning of a Google search result. Yeah.

I mean, you know, yeah, that's, but, but it's really good because it shows that that means a lot to you. Yeah. And that's why it's, that's why I think we, I know I'm really bad at it about celebrating those, those small things because especially when, you know, up until obviously very recently, it was pretty much just me doing this.

And when there is a bit of a win of, you know, you get some good feedback or you sign a new client or, or whatever it is, or you've just rolled out a feature and you know, your inbox isn't full of people saying, oh, I found something wrong with that. You sort of forget to celebrate those little wins and you just carry on with the next thing and it can get quite, um, yeah, it can, that is what plays into the imposter syndrome. I think it does.

You're not rewarding yourself. So I'm, I'm your first employee. Um, but my, my question to you is next day.

So if we say, if you could choose anybody, anybody, either in entertainment or business as your next employee, who would they be and why? Uh, oh, that's, we'd be sitting with us at the, uh, at the board table. I'm going, I was there at the beginning and Jon chose me because, uh, that's a, that's a difficult one to answer because there, there are a couple of, there are some people on that list that, um, I can't talk about cause, um, we're sort of in those sorts of awkward negotiational parts.

Um, so if we exclude all of them and they'll know who they are, if they watch this, if we exclude all of those people, um, Oh, that's a really difficult one. Cause I, you know, I, I'm a big fan of, um, of the sort of, you know, the dragon's den and, and the well-known businesspeople. And you sort of feel if you're in a business context, it's really important to make sure that you get, uh, people with experience and that can help you, you know, grow, grow your business.

Um, and the, the, for me, the main reason why I want to grow it isn't about the money side. Um, it's not, I, you know, I'm not doing this because I want to be able to say that I'm a millionaire or a multimillionaire or anything like that. It's, um, I want to be financially secure, and I want to not have to worry about money, but ultimately I, I, the real high I get is from that feedback and from seeing usage numbers where people are, are using it every day.

That's where I go. Yes, that's, you know, and it's not the vanity stats of what we've got massively. Um, I think that's why we get on so well, you know, and it's not the, well, we've got this many people using the system, uh, sorry, who've been, who've signed up for the system.

It's how many people are using it every day. And that's that those are the numbers that get me. So, um, yeah.

And I've had lots of experience of talking to various businesspeople where, um, they tell you what you need to do before you've actually finished explaining what it is that what the problem is that you're doing. So that's why I'm sort of struggling with this because it's, uh, you know, you could say, well, you know, any of the dragons or, you know, if it's people past or present, you know, the typical thing people probably say is Steve jobs, you know, some, some sort of visionary or Bob Iger or, or any, any of these like top business people. Um, but I dunno, maybe it's my ego saying, I can't really think of who that next person would be.

I think I'll know when, when I see them. Um, I think so that is my non-answer to your question. It just fills me with more questions.

The journalist comes out and says, hang on a minute, let's dive into that a little bit more. Yeah. Yeah.

Sorry about that. Who would, um, who would you think? Yeah, I suppose I, I go a little bit down the cliche route as well.

You know, you kind of think of, ah, Steven Bartlett, wouldn't it be great to have him as a board member? Um, or not so much Steve jobs because, um, I don't really know him that well. I haven't studied a lot of his work, but obviously he created the, well, the kind of the second largest company or maybe even the largest, depending on whether it's Amazon, Tesla, or Microsoft or Apple that are vying for that position.

Um, my take on this generally is I want my passion is to bring in people. I enjoy employing new people, like people who have never done the job before and giving people an opportunity. So rather than for me, somebody of great experience, it's seeing the wonder, the passion, having somebody who comes along and as sees our product completely new with different eyes and like it almost in a childlike wonder and goes, right.

I know what I can do with this now. And I see it differently and I can add value. But seeing that in somebody who's 18 to 24 and is, you know, given their first job, I still remember.

Um, when I worked for a magazine, I was the editor of a magazine and I phoned up a lad that I was employing for, I think a technical editor or something like that. And this young lad, Matt, I'm, he interviewed, he did a fantastic job, really lovely lad. And I phoned him up to tell him he's got the job because I always did it in person on the phone, not a letter or email or something.

And he was working in a factory, a Lexmark factory, I think it was. Um, and his response will go with me to my grave. He actually cried out and he said, oh my God, I've just, everybody in the factory just turned around and looked at me because he was so happy to be fulfilling his dream on the next step of his career.

And that for me was, I think that's a wonderful opportunity as a leader, as an employer, as a business to be able to give. So that'd be my, doesn't really matter who it is, don't know who it is, but somebody that could bring the passion of the two of us, the interest of the two of us, the nerdiness. And I'm going, you know, I want to just have fun with this.

And you know, so that for me, it's this fictitious kind of new little startup dude or dudette from, I don't care where they're from. I don't care what their background is, but, but somebody who just approaches it with the same love and passion and care that we do. It's really interesting that because I, while you were talking there, it was reminding me of when I first started.

And I remember talking to my dad about business and, and things like that. And he said, you know, there, there are no rules in business. I thought that's, it took me a very long time, probably until I started intheOffice, maybe, maybe a bit before, but to really appreciate what he was saying there, because it's, when you go to school, you're, you're taught, this is what you have to do to pass exams.

Then you go to university and you're taught, this is again, what you have to do to pass exams. And then you go off into the world of work. And I know for me, I had a very strange four years, people don't usually spend that much time doing those jobs.

And, you know, I, I know I didn't do my best and I wasn't really that interested in it. And that affected quite a lot of how, you know, I kept thinking that there, there's going to be the next stage and was almost waiting for it to come along rather than when you do see people who, um, well, one of the things that I try to tell people when they ask you about what's, what you're doing, or if they're, you know, you're trying to get someone who's never done a job before. And I tried to explain, so for coding, for example, um, you know, speaking to junior developers and saying, right, well, we want to do this.

And they tend to come at you go, but best practice says you have to follow these rules. And you go, well, actually, you know, if, if we did it your way, then we would spend six months building this thing. We wouldn't even know if anyone's interested in it.

Whereas you need to, you know, get the first version out, get the first draft out. You know, it can be as make sure it doesn't break, but make sure it works. Um, but it doesn't, you know, it doesn't need to be perfect.

And then we can go on from that and trying to get that shift of mindset is that that's, it's quite interesting. Yeah. If you've got someone new, you know, that blank canvas of a person almost that you can say, right, let's everything that you think, forget, this is the way that we're going to do this and can help you on every part of that journey.So that's quite interesting. It's a, it's a, it's a real privilege to be able to do that. I think, um, same it is, you know, uh, with more experienced people as well, because, you know, quite often, um, you, well, you do all the time.

You employ people who have, you've kind of have a, um, alignment with you, your vision, mission values and principles as a person. So when they, people come in, you would expect them probably not to be the same as you, but to certainly perhaps approach things, um, in a way that would trigger that new sensation, that new feeling. So, yeah, I love doing that.

It's a privilege to be able to recruit actually, I really enjoy it. And do you, um, I mean, on that, I know we've sort of touched on it, but, um, the recruiting someone who is looking for either a new industry or a new, you know, maybe just a new vertical or a new job. So I know when, when I went for my first interview as a developer, you know, my CV just read everything about law and then, you know, setting up a small agency, which hadn't really done very much.

And that was my CV. So taking on someone like that is quite a challenge, but do you think there's, for me personally, I would look favourably on someone that's trying different things and learning different things over someone that just is, you know, doing one thing. Yeah, I think 99% of a job role, you can teach.

What you can't teach is passion, enthusiasm, love, interest. Um, you can't teach that, that that's, you may be able to learn that over time, but quite often, um, I think the way our education system works and the way we're teaching people these days is that we're kind of, there's such a divergency with where business is. Um, and therefore there's a chasm in this expectation as well.

Um, so yeah, I think you can, you can teach, you can teach coding, you can teach marketing, you can teach, um, designing, you can teach, you know, all sorts of things, but what, yeah, those kind of fundamental, um, kind of elements about being in the business, the passion, that interest, that's what you go for first. Depending on what the role is, you have to work smart. You don't want, you wouldn't put somebody as heck in marketing, you've come out of university.

Um, but yeah, common sense applies in all the course. Yeah. Yeah.

So, um, I alluded to that, you know, that, um, pushing myself is, uh, top of a ski slope. For you, Jon, how do you push yourself? What, what, what's your thing that, you know, gets your adrenaline going to push?

Um, well, I guess it's, it's the same as you. It's that moment of being slightly out of your comfort zone, isn't it? It's the doing something that, I mean, don't get me wrong.

I love my comfort zone. I think it's, it's, it's very welcoming, but, um, I love starting new things. I love, um, having those sorts of different ideas and seeing the way that I can in my head go, right, well, this is happening over there.And I feel like there's a solution over here and it's tied to something else. And maybe I can merge those things together. Um, and that's what gets me to, you know, for me, I love being able to explore an idea.

I, you know, I hate just thinking about it. I want to make it physical. So if I've got an idea for an app or something like that, I will generally start messing around with some things and, um, you know, start building something.

And more often than not, I realised halfway, you know, well, after a couple of hours, this probably isn't going to work out as I thought. Um, but it's the, it's the trying something new and trying to solve a problem really that, that, that's what makes me really, yeah, get, get excited about something, I guess. I guess that's what you're sort of talking about at the top of the Yeah.

It's not, it's not just plain fear. It's, um, I'm excited and a little uncomfortable. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But all you need is somebody just to give you that little push in this one example that I had was my, um, Gabby's mum, my partner's mum.

I was on the green and I was quite happy. It'd be my comfort zone to go on the green. And she said, no, come on this way.

So if we went to a blue or red, whatever it was, and I was like, rude words underneath my breath, but I went, did it, had the greatest fun, went back up again. So, yeah, but, but that's it, isn't it? And, and, you know, in business, it's that kind of every slope, what you want is, you know, it, that adrenaline to get you to the top and then that, oh no, you end up going back down again, but you always pick yourself back up and you go back up.

So it's, it's so easy to not pick yourself back up and to convince yourself that you're not good enough. I mean, hence every single self-help book that talks about this sort of thing. At the moment I'm reading, um, Arnold Schwarzenegger's latest book, uh, Be Useful I think it's called.

And, you know, and he talks about this as well. And it's, it is so easy to just go, I'll never do that. I'll never make it there.

But actually, if you just, if you just try and do it, I've done talks and at schools, I did plays and performances and stuff. And I was always shaking with nerves beforehand, but I knew afterwards I'd feel great. And as long as you, you know, did performances, which crashed and burned, did speeches, I've done lots of talks where at the end of it, I thought, good, I'm even getting bored of my voice.

So, you know, um, it's as long as you don't let that then dictate everything in the future. So if you are skiing down a, down a red and you fall, you, you know, give it a go because once you, once you get there and once you do it, it will feel so much better. And then you'll wonder, you'll look back and go, why was I even worried about that?

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Epitomises learning. Doesn't it that, that whole analogy. Yeah, exactly.

It really does. Exactly. I guess, um, we've probably got time for one more question or do you have a question?

Uh, yeah, well, I've got another, I've got another two. Um, okay. Let's do this one back to a business-related question for me then, Jon.

Um, also we've done lots of research. We're, we're scaling our business. We're working hard on finding new ways to do things and, you know, all the usual hick-ups that brings, but from your perspective and your learning and from where you're sat now, what do you think the biggest obstacle, um, or challenge to businesses are, um, right now?

Um, it'd be really, it'd be a really easy cop out to say AI. Um, because I don't, I think that personally, and I was going to ask you about AI, um, personally, I feel like it's going to propel us forwards and it, there's a lot of opportunity there. Obviously there, there are some terminator style risks, but generally I think that there's, there's a lot of, um, forward motion.

And I think that's probably actually the biggest risk. And it's always really been the biggest risk to businesses is people getting stuck in their own ways and thinking that this is the, the way that things should be done. You know, technology is just moved so quickly.

When you think about, you know, a hundred years ago, what the state of technology was, you know, we have, and that was, that was a hundred years ago. You think look back 200 years and then a thousand years. And we had thousands and thousands of years of, you know, not, not really doing anything.

Um, so in the last hundred years, everything's really moved forwards and it's so easy for a company that's either starting up and thinks they found market fit or one that's actually been in the market for a long time and just goes, well, but we know we've got our customers and we can carry on and it's all fine. Um, it's, that's, that's the challenge, um, to, to how do you move forwards, but also how do you get your workforce to accept and allow you to move forwards? Um, and it's, it's controversially, very controversially.

Um, and you might want to take this out. Uh, one of the things that I struggle with, with, um, the rail strikes, um, is that there's a, you, yes, protecting people's jobs is, is obviously important. We want people to be employed, but at the expense of moving forwards, that's where it starts to become difficult.

And yeah, with, um, with a private company, if you had the whole workforce saying, well, we're, you know, basically holding that company to ransom saying we're not working with striking that company would actually fold. And it's different with, um, the rail. So it's, as long as, if people can be redeployed or retrained, that's, that's brilliant.

But, um, you need to, yeah, you need to kind of move, allow the technology to help us move forwards and make, make better, better decisions and make, dare I said, the world's better place. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I started with one company and they said, um, what's the, I asked them what the objective was of the role. And they said, we've got to grow by a hundred percent this year.

My first question was why, and then how, um, so the, is this constant chasing of, right, we've got exponential growth exponentially. It's like, well, seriously, one or two companies are able to do that. I'm reading a book at the minute, Lost and Founder by the guy who set up Moz and, um, he did have growth, you know, 30% year on year or something.

So he had a hundred percent growth over three years. That seems sustainable, but it's this whole kind of rush to make so much money. And that's all that counts.

And that for me is, I think that's daft. Um, so I think that's one of the biggest challenges we face is almost like a realignment of, and that may be a naive statement. I get it.

But, but the realignment of actually few, you know, Panasonic famously had a business plan that's 90 years long. Maybe that's a bit on the other extreme, but still for me, there's grow. Will a business grow?

If you, if you treat your business like an acorn and let it grow into sapling stage and then tree and then giant Oak, is that better for the long-term than trying to miss out those stages? Are you creating just holes in your foundation? So that for me is probably the biggest challenge I think we face in many ways.

And that's probably a bit more of a hangover from like the dot com boom stages and VCs where it's, you know, we want 10 X growth because we've invested however much money and it's all short-term growth. As you say, it's, it's the, let's just make money and get out so that we as investors can make our money. And, um, I've seen a couple, one or two sorts of angel investors who are now saying, we actually want to invest for the long haul.

We want you to make a business which will survive. So don't cut corners now, get it right and move on. Yeah.

Great. Slowly with purpose and for the long term. Yeah.

So we touched on it very briefly there, um, about AI and, uh, how you think, well, I guess my question is how do you think it's going to change the world of work? Uh, I think at the minute it's in that phase where only people who really love it are going to get it and want to use it. You know, other programmers and other people who've maybe been using AI and can manipulate AI to do what it needs.

I think for the vast majority of people, it's still not quite at the phase where you can go, tell it to do something and it generates it for you. So, you know, as humans, we can be fundamentally lazy, right? Um, what was it that Bill Gates (allegedly) used to say?

I love employing lazy people because they find shortcuts for things. My take on AI should be that I should be able to just tell it, right? Write me a blog that's about this, this, this, and this is this long.

And it includes this and go and find me some pictures and then write it in a nice casual way, blah, blah, blah. Just tell me what to do. And it goes off and does it and does it in 25 seconds.

And I've got a complete package there. So for me at the minute, yes, I use it to scale. I use it to research.

I use it to make images for me that would take me a long time, um, but that creates something unique, but it's still not got quite that usefulness yet or convenience factor. You still have to work a little bit at it, which is fine because it helps you understand it more. Um, and I think what will happen is, is that it will start by plugging into things and people will be able to change the interface so that you can use very simple prompts or voice guided prompts just to go.

It almost becomes a bit like an employee. It's like, go do that, please. You know, um, when you start going into, right, putting that into a machine that moves around and starts to then interact with the physical environment.

Um, I personally can't wait to see that happen. There may be, you know, what was it? Isaac Asimov's three laws.

Um, but I don't know, I don't quite have that fear. I think that's, there's too much Hollywood and kind of, um, I think there's an over simplistic look at AI tech generally. Um, and I think what it will do is it will change the face of work.

I'm hoping it will change the face of education, particularly, um, because that needs such a radical overhaul. It's, it's unbelievable and potentially government and politics as well. But, um, but I think it's very, very exciting.

I think it's new, it's fresh. I don't have the fear. I have more frustration because it doesn't quite do the things that I want it to do at times.

Um, but I, yeah, I, I think, um, my kind of hope is, is that, you know, we, we get into humans get into, this is where the nerd herd is. I'm going to start to appear at the front of that herd right now. The Star Trek, and as the words come out of my mouth, I can't go straight.

Why am I going to say the whole concept about the, for me, Star Trek is about the human, expanding the human mind through exploration, the concept of money and the acquisition of wealth and all this kind of stuff is daft. We don't, we don't need wealth. We, you know, if we go actually, why don't you, and it's a very simplistic naive way, but I just love that concept of going, what could happen if aliens landed and we go, oh my goodness, we're that small in the cosmos.

We should be thinking about other things than how much money we can make and how much, you know, how many cars we can acquire, or, you know, I've got a Rolex watch. Um, instead it's about, okay, what truly is humans put on this planet for? Um, so that for me is, that's a much more existential question admittedly, but I think that's super exciting.

It's actually, that's what, um, I'm sure I've read somewhere that everyone who's been into space has come back saying that they can't believe how, how small and pathetic are like border disputes are, you know, the, there is so much more out there where we're nothing in comparison. So we should actually all just, yeah. There's a human construct to all of it, isn't it?

I mean, um, you know, you know, considering a, I mean, there's a, this is a dangerous comment to make, particularly in these current political and worldwide circumstances, you'll find yourself in, but a man drawing some lines on a map to say, this is yours or people, a committee of government saying this is ours seems a little bit daft. Um, rather than drawing lines to stop things, we should be opening doors to allow things to happen. Um, and celebrating, you know, these, these kinds of borders as, as, um, something different from what we currently see them.

I mean, building walls to stop people coming in is the most stupid thing possible. There is, we should be, um, you know, kind of thinking up and out. I think Elon Musk has got that bit right.

Let's go and explore the stars and really see where human ingenuity and science can really go. Um, and, and explore the oceans. I think expanding the human mind through exploration and learning is that's, that's the human future.

Not amassing immense wealth, you know, Elon Musk wanting $54 billion as a pay packet. Why? Anyway, if I was in his shoes, I'd probably want the same, but I mean, I have to say, I do have issues with exploring the, uh, exploring the oceans.

I've seen the Meg and I know what happens when you do that. And not for me. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I get that. Or Godzilla or the Kaiju. Yeah.

You know, all of these, the warnings are there. Well, life imitates art so often, doesn't it? I mean, look at the mobile phone.

I think, uh, Captain Kirk was responsible for that or Gene Roddenberry, really. Yeah. I do miss the noise.

I miss my, I miss my flip phone. I really do. It was, um, it was the Matrix.

That's just switched off for 70% of the listeners. Well, that's all right. I mean, the, I was going to say when the Matrix came out, I remember so many people breaking off the arms of their sunglasses so they could do the Morpheus sunglasses.

And of course they would always fall off. Yeah. Everything comes back around fashion, everything, technology, probably.

Yeah, exactly. I've got a question for you, Jon, probably my last one then. Um, because, uh, people will probably start using this to help them with their insomnia, but, um, tell me something or tell us something about you that people wouldn't expect.

Something you do, something you are, something that you studied or a passion and interest. You think, oh, I wouldn't expect that. Um, the, the biggest thing that I, that people don't usually expect from me is, um, to do with the sport that I like to do.

So I like to do a lot of target shooting, um, which is basically lying down in the field and firing a shot at a piece of paper that can be 300 yards to a thousand yards away and trying to hit the middle of that. And, um, think of darts, but on a very grand scale. Um, you know, it's, uh, a lot of people would probably say it's boring until they try it.

And then they, they seem to enjoy it. Um, but the thing that people might not know is I've previously been part of the, uh, England under 21 and the GB under 25 world championship teams where we won, uh, those matches. So can say that I'm, uh, an under 25 world champion, for example.

That's pretty cool. That's a, that's my sort of random, random fact. And it is generally world champion, isn't it?

It's not like the, the, uh, what is it? The Americans have the Superbowl, the world championships. Yeah.

No, this was, um, so the GB under 25 was in Canada, um, went out there with a really great team and, uh, yeah, it was a day long match where I think we shot at 300. I think we did 300, 600, um, yards and then 800 and 900 meters. And it was the aggregate score across the whole team of that.

And it was, yeah, it was, it was an awesome example. That team was such a really well oiled. We all knew what our roles were.

We just worked well together. When one of us was feeling down, someone else would pick them up and it just worked really, really well. It was a real pleasure to be part of.

Well, that's quite fascinating. The fact that you're a world champion at, uh, at target shooting, that's super impressive. Wow.

Um, have you, uh, have you got a similar, uh, or the most embarrassing fact about you that you can tell us? Uh, well, some silly things. I mean, I wear odd socks every single day because when my kids were little, um, it was just for fun.

Um, so I think they don't know my dad's a vicar, but that's not really me. Um, I'm the son of a preacher, man. Um, and I believe that's the first time you've ever said that joke.

When it's not been at a bar. Um, yeah, definitely. No, I'm a massive science fiction fan.

I wanted to become a palaeontologist. That was what, um, many years ago when I was at university, I studied applied geology with the aim of becoming a palaeontologist because I wanted to be Dr. Alan Grant from Jurassic Park.

I, I can see you wanting to be the wanting to be that person.

The dinosaur studying dinosaurs. Yeah.

So you didn't want to be Ross from friends?

No, funnily enough, it was not over my head that he was a palaeontologist, but, uh, unfortunately it's either, um, you either go into teaching or, um, or studying or field study or something along those lines. It's a very hard life.

So instead I thought about going into exploration geology where obviously that's, it's like a rock star of geologists, but you end up working for petrochemical companies generally. And, um, I didn't want to do that. So, but yeah, my life's normal.

 Well, no, I didn't, I didn't know that about you. That's a, that is actually quite interesting. Yeah.

 Um, well, uh, yeah, I guess that's a good time to sort of sign off. And, uh, I mean, yeah, it's, I know we said we were going to be more talk about more personal things. It's been mostly sort of our view on business, but I guess that's also what the podcast is meant to be about.

So, um, really interesting. Um, Adam, thanks very much. Enjoyed those questions.